Curse

NekoZ · Nov 13, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Hah, truly laughable.

Let me say this: Gaile, you have the unenviable job of defending this, but it's truly horrid. You say to let support know, but they just reply that we should post in the forums. Your testers apparently fell asleep for a few weeks, as the AI was ridiculously bad, and still is. It's a joke trying to make a suggestion through forums such as this one, since a valid, simple suggestion like "allow customizing of colours on the minimap for colourblind players" which would be easy to accomplish and would help a significant number of players gets buried under the tripe like "dual wielding" and the 1000s of suggestions of moronic, overpowered skills/classes and requests for nerfs. We're also restricted to posting in the threads about the patch, which means that good suggesions get buried among the whines and rants.

Here are the reasons the patch is horrid:

1) Enemies can't play like players. If they did all the Charr on a map should bunch up; the mission would be deserted until you found the huge group of Charr. Why would they split up? Why would they allow each other to die just out of aggro range? The fact is that the heroes are against impossible odds, and if the AI truly had any intelligence it would wipe us out impossibly fast. That and the fact that a small group of them should take one look at the party and scram - they shouldn't ever aggro a party in fact, as they know damn well that 2 monks and a pile of guys will outlast them, they'd hightail it back to find some healers themselves.

a) not pursuing players: This makes no sense; I think it's an attempt to restrict players from farming (dragging foes into packs) but it is illogical - a fleeing foe is a great target - why would they stop? The sentient ones should eliminate intruders anyway, not stop feet away from them because of an invisiible line, and most natural predators have huge ranges and are encouraged by flight. While some critters might realisitically stay in a smaller region (plant types, the devourers who behave like antlions/wolf spiders and prey only in a small area) the vast majority should be chasing us.

b) Fleeing AoE: Ok, a part of this is needed - it is true that they were too dumb before, but the behaviour is ludicrous. You obviously have nobody with any AI design experience. Heck, bring in some undergrad co-op students from a local cognitive science program, you get free labour that actually can find their butts with a map. You say you want them smarter? You haven't managed it - they're dumber, just a different kind of dumb. Honestly, you need decent testers and someone who can actually do AI.

If the enemies were smart we'd die. You'd meet a small pack of Charr, they'd send a runner to round up the others and play a stalling game till reinforcements came. They'd probably get involved when you slaughter them withing eyesight/earshot of each oteher. They might not stand and shooot a wall while you curse them from behind it. Maybe they'd even learn to avoid players. But the fact is that we aren't strong enough to deal with truly smart foes. So you need dumb foes, and you have to pick your flavour of dumb. The current dumb-ness is unpalatable and ludicrous - after all, they'll happily stay near a warrior dealing out massive damage, instead of kiting, while they'll flee an AoE spell? Either hurts! Getting away from a creature hitting you with an axe would seem to be a priority to me...

As to the PvP vs. PvE thing, I know I've made many suggestions about ways to either improve the links between them or to dissolve them, but they'll never be read as they get buried. If you want to chat give me a shout, but I'm completely discouraged from trying to get any ideas across. The forums may get perused by ANet, but it's incredibly inefficient.

Well said.

Plus, since this is an obvious attempt to start farming as well, only they really did is make it take a few minutes longer to do the job.

diabis · Nov 13, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Necro: I'm unsure how wells are affected myself, so I cannot agree or disagree.
I will wait for verification on Necro Wells, though.
)

Nerco wells where not effected.

As to running away from AoE:
The mob should not run until hit. Thus fix this and the skill is not useless. No matter what level the mob is, it should not be able to read my mind before my cast.
As to the Henchie, you Ele henchie are useless since they are casting those spells only that cause a direct run run from the mobs, so maybe the Dev's should re-evaluate the Ele henchie.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 13, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

Thats one of the pains of being a pvp player.

If your guild is any good you should be getting tons of faction. I've unlocked about a dozen elite skills with faction, and I only play random arena while waiting for guildmates to log in. I've never even made a PvP only avatar.

Quote:

This game is incredibly well designed for pvp yet it is underused.

Maybe others don't find it as incredibly well designed. I, for instance, fire up Counterstrike: Source when I want PvP, because I find the PvP in guildwars repetitive and boring. Yes, even more repetitive than CS:S.

Quote:

Because of the need to use an rpg character to unlock skills. Stop assuming how many times do I have to say it. I never argued for a UE button.

So you like unlocking things through PvE now? Besides, I support an UAE button, to get PvP'ers who hate PvE out of PvE. I hate having PvP'ers who play PvE under protest ruin my gaming experience.

Quote:

Why am I such a bad pugger? Being a good pvp player is a lot harder than being a great pve player.

That's why.

Quote:

Faction is still slow to earn which if you would like to argue start a thread and I'll do it anytime.

Nah, I'm happy the way you follow me around in the forum now. Just out of curiosity, how much do you want to unlock? Everything? Because you'll easily make enough faction to unlock the skills you need for a particular build. Hell, even I can do that in a day, and I play alone, with my PvE avatar, and am officially teh suck at PvP.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 13, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabis

No matter what level the mob is, it should not be able to read my mind before my cast.

They do see your casting bar, and if it's a long cast they'll respond before the cast is finished. If they didn't, they couldn't interrupt.

EDIT: damn, double post. Dear moderators, if you're going to delete, delete the previous one, not this one.

entropy · Nov 13, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

bought around 7 elite skills and 25 regular ones... But its still slow overall. Guild battles I believe give around 500. For around an hour match its not great. Thats why???? what a good pvp player is better than a good pve one.
Nah not unlock everything but I like to try out really weird and random builds and each one costs around 2-5k faction(try new builds everyday around). Like to play around with skills that I've never used before. Whe I say incredibly well designed I mean that the current skill balance isn't bad. The items aren't what make the game. I could create pvp chars and win and not have to do rpg. That's what I'm trying to say. You mention something about me in many of your posts so I simply quote back

. I never said I liked unlocking things through PvE but its the fastest as stated before.

Almighty Zi · Nov 13, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I agree in principle with the update, buff up the AI and encourage team play. The update however has fallen short of this goal as it has been poorly implemented.

I'm not saying that we should have highly intelligent enemies but I think that having some enemies move out of AoE spells, in certain circumstances, is a worthwhile improvement. There shouldn't be a general rule where every enemy runs out of every area of effect spell or vice versa where every enemy will happily stand in four or more echoed metoer showers. For instance, a ranger may decide to move out of a firestorm if he has low health and is still able to attack from outside its area of effect, whereas a warrior wouldn't move because he cannot attack from outside its range.

In its current form I can see why many people don't like the update. I hope that ANET aren't put of by the whiners and continue to work on improving the update and hopefully get it right.

General Surena · Nov 13, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antc

Yes there is more to this game than repetitive farming, but once you have completed the game on all 4 characters, the only thing left is PvP, which a lot of people have no interest in whatsoever, or farming.

"When there's nothing else to do/left in this in game....."

Ah, "obvious" killer argument....

Go play something else? Why force yourself onto repetitive gaming when PVP is the other option you don't like? Occupational therapy?

Loch · Nov 13, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

I hope that ANET aren't put of by the whiners and continue to work on improving the update and hopefully get it right.

There's nothing to worry about; forums are generally the worst place to go looking for opinions about an update, so ANet won't go gathering stats from here. Forums are mostly a place for complainers to vent, as the people who don't feel strongly don't feel a need to post. ANet can always go gather stats about who's playing in-game.

Dametrus · Nov 13, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Okay I have seen some requests for Europe/Asia's response to the update. I just got off the phone with friend stationed in Germany. They all play this game. He is going to try and send me some links of different sites that they use. They have also got petitions going. The main one has over 2500 signs on it just from their area. THEY DON"T LIKE IT EITHER.

Fantus · Nov 13, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

There's nothing to worry about; forums are generally the worst place to go looking for opinions about an update, so ANet won't go gathering stats from here. Forums are mostly a place for complainers to vent, as the people who don't feel strongly don't feel a need to post. ANet can always go gather stats about who's playing in-game.

hehe, indeed - probably they noticed people bitching in just about every district of GW, too.

Ileania · Nov 13, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torment

Then if it is MAINLY PvP, don't even bother to make a PvE side. Simple. I love how the PvP'ers seem to think that this game was made for them ONLY. What arrogance. PvP'ers like comparing their masculintiy with others?

Not to alarm you or anything but the game is called guild wars
now dont get me wrong i LOVE rpgs and thats the reason I got the game, but I knew when I got it that it was based on a gvg/pvp environment, perhaps I just "read the box wrong"

aron searle · Nov 13, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Not to alarm you or anything but the game is called guild wars
now dont get me wrong i LOVE rpgs and thats the reason I got the game, but I knew when I got it that it was based on a gvg/pvp environment, perhaps I just "read the box wrong"

Yes you did

Read the story book, that will tell you why its called guild wars (prince rurik also refers to the "guild wars")

Does prince rurik PVP

that would be funny

kratic · Nov 13, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

rurik would get his ass whooped if he did pvp lol

aron searle · Nov 13, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

He has a fiery dragon sword, he would pwn you.

Loviatar · Nov 13, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ileania

Not to alarm you or anything but the game is called guild wars
now dont get me wrong i LOVE rpgs and thats the reason I got the game, but I knew when I got it that it was based on a gvg/pvp environment, perhaps I just "read the box wrong"

actually if you read the information in game

*guildwars in the PAST which weakened the humans to the point the char could gain the upper hand*

FFF_Asmodeus · Nov 13, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

They are not in your debt. You are in theirs. You haven't done anything for them. Accept it cause it is a game that you should be playing for fun.

See this is where you are all wrong... We owe them nothing, They chose to release GW as a non pay to play... Without us They would have a very large expensive setup making nothing doing nothing... They are in our debt we pay them...

Quote:

Let me say this: Gaile, you have the unenviable job of defending this, but it's truly horrid. You say to let support know, but they just reply that we should post in the forums. Your testers apparently fell asleep for a few weeks, as the AI was ridiculously bad, and still is. It's a joke trying to make a suggestion through forums such as this one, since a valid, simple suggestion like "allow customizing of colours on the minimap for colourblind players" which would be easy to accomplish and would help a significant number of players gets buried under the tripe like "dual wielding" and the 1000s of suggestions of moronic, overpowered skills/classes and requests for nerfs. We're also restricted to posting in the threads about the patch, which means that good suggesions get buried among the whines and rants.

This guy has the right idea... I must ask who do they listen too? telling me to post in one of many forums is like telling me to go tell that rock! Very unprofessional! I mean Guilds have thier own forums... Cannot A-net get a proper forum for thier game?

Quote:

Yes, there were a number of upset people. I think a lot of us can remember the same sort of reaction in other titles with their “Patch Days.” But the difference is, we understand and we are listening.

Now I have been gaming for awhile I am almost 40... I remember those patch days and guys that were playing exploits whining like crybabys...

The difference here is Guild Wars has become Build Wars your patch days which most games have had 3 tops are well over a normal patch job on a game... Patches usually happen due to a bug or exploit being played not because people figured out a way to play you just dissagree with... Continually changing an existing game will lose you players...

I have to ask if this gold being sold on E-bay is such a problem why dosn't A-Net talk to E-bay and have them stop posting gold and weapons I was amazed that searching out a green bow I found the first listing read like a guide to green weapons but was a guy selling these items on E-bay... Hell 60k in game for that monk weapon or 19.95 cash... Which is easier? We get no drops due to these farming sweat shops, we cannot sell weapons at a decent price anymore due to these farming sweat shops... We get no drops due to these farming sweat shops ruining the mix... Yet AI is the firstmost problem?

Sorry my post went a little all topic...

Lynx Of Ithorian · Nov 13, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I really cant seem to get my head around this update , ALOT of skills are now worthless - I mean no good ele brings aoe spells into pvp because players simply move out the way ... so the only use they have is for pve to cause major damage (at a high energy cost - hence the strategic involvement) ... it just doesnt make sense to me - this update his made 3 out of my 4 characters useless. Ive completed the game with all 4 and im not interested in pvp anymore so all thats left to do is farm .... which anet has taken away from me.

balth aura = useless (is the 25 energy worth the 25 dmg you inflict ?)
meteor shower = useless (exhaustion ? your likely to get 1 hit in with this - 2 maybe if you slow them down first)
fire storm = useless (15 energy for 20dmg nice , think i'll just use flare instead)
symbol of wrath = useless (only 5 sec duration ? they spend 4 secs of that outside the aoe , nice)
malestrom = useless ( ...... )

aron searle · Nov 13, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Yea i have to say, anyone who classifies this as PVE or PVP is missing the point.

Its both.

Think about it

30-40ish main missions +30-40ish bonuses

HUNDREDS of side quests, you know go kill x beast and unlock these skills.

the story

all the detailed areas, have you actually just looked at the level of detail in the enviroments, that is something i have to tip my hat to Anet fot.

I could argue with that, that its more a PVE game, but i wont casue thats dumb.

Anyway back on subject.

I hate this update, its as bugged as hell

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

HAHAHAHAHA

BUILDING Ferraris is altering the SUPPLY side, not the demand side...

If every people had one million dollars in their bank, DEMAND for Ferraris DEFINITELY would go up.

People usually farm because they want to BUY stuff. Which OF COURSE means that the DEMAND will GO UP. Farming ALSO means that ITEMS and MATERIALS are brought into the economy meaning that the SUPPLY side will GO UP as well - thus NEGATING the negative effect the increased influx of money otherwise would have on the economy.

Ok, I'll explain it slowly so you understand.

I know building more Ferrari's is a supply action, which is why I equated it to farming. You said farming increases demand. Farming is a SUPPLY action since by its very nature it brings gold and items into the economy. That's why it's called farming!!! You know, like the guys who grow stuff and sell it at the market?! They are suppliers, not demand generators. If they supply too much grain, it sits in grain warehouses, and doesn't get bought (you suggest it does get bought). They do that rather than selling it to restrict supply and thereby keep a price. If they don't provide enough, the price goes up, not demand. Demand stays the same. We don't use more grain just because the suppliers provide more...

People farming because they want to buy stuff is not demand. The demand is the fact they want to buy stuff in the first place. Farming is a means to an end: there is a demand for gold.

The problem is that money doesn't go out of the system unless it is given to a trader. Therefore more money comes in without leaving, so we have inflation.

On your last point, more money enters the economy than items, simply because you don't get a good selable item on every farming run, so the availability of gold increases faster than the availability of items, so the price of items increases. If what you said was true, we would not have items selling for over 100k and more farmers would mean reducing prices, not increasing.

Ileania · Nov 13, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Maybe I went in the wrong direction in explaining myself, thank you for pointing that out....
I sold this game to many people, I work selling games everyday. What was I told about the game? What was my selling points?
"While guild wars is a free mmorpg its bases are guild vs guild. It does have a decent storyline, so it is good for rpgers as well as pvpers. Its a laid back community due to the lack of fees, so you can play when you want to. It has a diablo feel to it. There is a lvl 20 cap atm but thats where the game actually starts because thats when u have access the skills for the pvp/gvg."

I dont know how other ppl sold the game but I was sure to make ppl know they were picking up a pvp based game that used rgp as a way to gain better things for pvp. One of my co-workers also beta tested and he was using pretty much the same selling point from day 1. Now with the title of mmorpg there is obviously some gear towards rpging i dont understand how people that enjoy rpg could get upset that they are trying to improve the ai, the bases of you tacics and skill decisions.